Utah considering eliminating senior year in public schools on clarkhoward.com

The governor of Utah has floated a controversial proposal to eliminate the senior year of high school in his state. His rationale is that it will save a fortune during a tough budget crunch and students don't do anything useful during senior year anyway! Of course, that's gotten parents, students and teachers alike riled up. The proposal, therefore, is likely not to see the light of day.

On the other hand, a number of other states around the country are participating in a pilot program that will let kids voluntarily start college early following 10th grade. Of course, that's dependent on successfully completing required high school coursework and exit exams. We'll let you know how the experiment goes in Kentucky, Maine, Connecticut, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Vermont.

Clark's older brother started college two years early and his brother's daughter started college at 15. He's obviously the smart brother in the family!

The consumer champ loves these kind of experiments that get away from the "one size fits all" mentality in education.

In another example, a Georgia public college called Georgia Perimeter is now offering a three-year bachelor's degree. A three-year plan can save you big bucks during the course of your education.

All of these ideas point to one thing: Allowing education to fit the student. We spend so much on public schools and get so little return for it. We need a system with flexibility and standards, both designed to improve academic performance and get a better return on investment with our tax dollars.

What others are saying

Senior Year
High school students in our area can receive college credits through the local community college during their Jr and Sr High school years while taking classes at the high school. By the time they graduate high school they receive several credits toward their degree. (What a money saver!)
By Lyn @ 03/12/10 08:15:36 PMreport abuse
I started college after the 10th grade. I went to public school through the 9th grade and was home schooled my 10th grade year. After completing my 10th grade year I wouldn't have had much left to do for the last two, just some English courses and history clases (I'd already completed math, science, PE, and typing).

The public school I was attending had gone to a system called Block Scheduling were you do four classes the first half of the school year and then do four different classes the second half of the year. The idea being that you could squeeze in two extra classes each year. It's a good idea in principal but the implementation left something to be desired. For instance, you could take English 1 the first half of the year, but you were not allowed to sign up to take English 2 the second half of the year as you might not pass English 1 (you had to sign up for classes at the beginning of the year for both terms, unlike college were you sign up for a term right before the beginning of the term). This system leaves students stuck in the system for four years as you were required to complete four English courses to "complete" your HS education.

I often found myself bored at high school. I would do my homework during the teacher's lecture because they were teaching things that I'd already learned in elementary and middle school. That's why when my mom asked me if I wanted to be home schooled my 10th grade year I jumped at the chance.

Personally I feel like things worked out great for me, even though I did not do the full four years of high school. I don't know that only doing two years of high school would work for everyone, as not every student applies him/herself to their studies as much as they should. For many people in my class, high school was just a social outlet not a place to learn skills you may need later in life.
By Angela @ 03/11/10 10:58:31 PMreport abuse
senior year
Unfortunately the proposal gets priorities upside down. The senior year doesn't have to be a waste.

I have three daughters who each completed at least a year of college work while still in high school. From the perspective of the whole country this is a much better use of resources than sending them to college.

So the proposal seems to be to save $ in school budgets at the expense of a much higher cost for college.

What about the kids who don't belong in college? Are we to just write them off?

We need education reform but cutting students off a high school year short is not reform, its a mistake.
By John Homer @ 03/11/10 08:37:54 PMreport abuse
Private vs. Public
Another note to the readers. I have 4 kids... the youngest by 5 years is in a private Christian School and in 5th grade has surpassed his sisters in High School on general skills. In the year that child has been in the private school we have seen unbelievable differences. The politics in the GA schools can only be described as frustrating. Send the kids off after 10th grade. Let them test and go to trade school, College prep, military or public service. Give them the choice instead of sitting around getting pregnant, drunk and wasting our money for 2 more years. Teachers have a great job and they must know it because they don't want things to change. I have relatives who retired as educators in their early 50's and we as tax payers have to pay for the wonderful retirement they enjoy as we work into our 70's. I would have to say that the system works great for them.
By Kurt @ 03/11/10 05:16:34 PMreport abuse
Senior year
I'm surprised politicians hadn't brought this up earlier. The last 2 years of High School are almost worthless. There are some that get some good out of it but if you doubt what I'm saying just go visit your local High School one day. Public School should go to about the 10th grade and then either trade school or Junior College. Let them decide I don't think that even 4 more years of education will help many. Give them some skills they can use to support themselves and contribute to society. I have to hire them all the time and I very seldom find a 19 year old that is capable of doing much more than play video games or basketball.
By Kurt @ 03/11/10 05:06:24 PMreport abuse
GED, and age limits
The age limit you can stay in high school and repeat your senior year is way too high. When I was doing my student teaching, in grad school, my supervising teacher pointed out a student who was wandering the halls between classes, and looked like a drug dealer to me. She said he was over 20. She said they couldn't just kick him out, b/c of the new rule that students were to be allowed to repeat a year almost indefinitely. That needs to end. Also, bright students should have the option of taking the GED after their junior year, get the diploma and start college early, I second that Clark. Students who want to take the AP exams (which saved me a lot of money in college - I was awarded 12 credit hours towards bachelor's degree from the combined scores I got on 3 different AP exams) should be allowed to prep for those exams in their junior year if they wish to.
By vlh @ 03/11/10 04:32:03 PMreport abuse
Oh Stephanie
"It is in the best interest of us all to make sure children are properly educated so can contribute to the well being of this country and the world at large."

So when are they going to start? I live in CO, supposedly in a community with "good" schools based on the test scores and graduation rates. From what I see, kids graduating today are about 2-3 grades behind the achievement level compared to when I graduated in 1973. So why are we paying these huge sums for a system that doesn't work very well? When I hear "It's for the children!", I have to laugh. No it isn't, it's for the benefit of a bunch of overpaid education workers who gave up on the hard work of teaching a long time ago.
By Ted @ 03/11/10 03:26:00 PMreport abuse
Response to Waste of Time and Money
Bill your comment is foolish to single out minority children is ridiculous. Clearly you have no idea what minority means. Let me educate you a minority is a small percentage of a majority. Therefore if you took number for number you would see that the so called "white" children number for number are not going to school either. In case you do not understand public school is a service that the country provides for the entire population. As it stands our education standards are rather low as evidenced by the ridiculous statement you just made. Perhaps you fail to realize that whatever issues affect one portion of the society or the world eventually effects everyone. It is in the best interest of us all to make sure children are properly educated so can contribute to the well being of this country and the world at large.
Also please not that the amount of melanin one has in their skin does not determine school attendance or education.
By Stephanie @ 03/11/10 01:57:17 PMreport abuse
Hello, Exactly!
"unless and until that monopoly stranglehold is broken, nothing will happen."

Indeed!

I can tell you, as a personal testimonial, now that I've completed two degrees (one in engineering-hard!) that high school was a huge waste of time.

Part of the reason was the disruption and lack of concern by my teachers, in addition to violence and general social nonsense.

With exceptions, high schools don't provide you what you need to prepare for a REAL education and skills needed for the workplace.

Anything worth a rip I learned in college or vocational school, which required me to make a lot of effort.

If there are high schools preparing students for basic math, english, and other PRACTICAL skills that would be much better. That can be done in less than 12 grades!
By Micro_engineer @ 03/11/10 10:33:03 AMreport abuse
Public education sucks
I could have skipped the last three years of high school for what they taught me. We need vouchers and we need them now. The teachers unions can kiss my a**. I pay full meal deal property taxes AND for a private school education for my child.
By David @ 03/11/10 10:03:09 AMreport abuse
Budget priorities
Maybe we would see improvements if our Government spending on educations was a small fraction of defense. The budget is smaller than the medicare misappropriations per year. But of course, the righties think we need no change in our wasteful corporate-bought healthcare system, and I am sure would be fine with a corporate play-to-pay education system where only the wealthy would get any education.
By Mike @ 03/11/10 09:33:51 AMreport abuse
one size fits all
our current k-12 education system is a monopoly, run by the government and their friends, the state and national teachers unions.
unless and until that monopoly stranglehold is broken, nothing will happen.
divy up each state's education budget per student, special needs getting more and allow these parents to send their children anywhere. budding math whizes go here, budding musicians go there, etc. students with trade school dreams go wherever. what could be better?
I know what the pro-union lefties say, like "what if parents want to send their kids to some parocial school?" so what! this is just another attempt to treat parents as a bunch of dummies. parents are not. there could be default selections if parents do not decide, such as what is now mandatory, the soviet style, monopoly run, union dominated, mediocre public school, but so what. at least those parents who want to could do what is actually best for their child, as opposed to what is best for the politicians, unions and teachers.
but, just my opinion
By brian @ 03/10/10 11:31:53 PMreport abuse
No Senior Year?
Let me get this straight. My school taxes are included in my property taxes so do I get a tax reduction for not having sent my child that last year? I don't think so. All parents should demand that their children go to school full time for 13 years which is what they are paying for. In most jobs we are sitting on our fat rears so work study and other programs can now be done on a computer at the school. I am not against change but am against getting the shaft when it comes to my tax money.
By Debbie Downer @ 03/10/10 10:00:07 PMreport abuse
education
Maybe we should reverse the trend of "dumbing down" our public high schools and actually challenge the students. There should be entrance exams for the high school and once you are accepted you are committing to do college prep work - 4 years of math, science, english, history and a language. While I do believe that not everyone needs a higher education to be successful, I think that most kids need to be challenged intellectually if we are to compete in a global economy. I also think that organized community service projects should be a part of the high school curriculum so that kids learn to communicate beyond texting and that they learn compassion for other people. When they go out into the community they will also learn that there are many jobs out there that they never even new existed and this may help them in planning their future careers.
By Maryanne @ 03/10/10 09:06:49 PMreport abuse
School
Clark,
I normally agree with you. However, your comment about "We spend so much on public schools and get so little return for it"
has thrown me off. I agree that the "one size fits all" mentality is dated. However, to throw that above comment out there is irresponsible. I have worked in education for 12 years, and before that in the private sector. The things that schools are doing nowadays is incredible. The test scores we are seeing is a result of some pretty messed up families or Non-English speaking students. This drives the curve down. So, please don't throw out such a comment without some backing.
By Eric @ 03/10/10 07:53:10 PMreport abuse
The answer to the public school problems is this. First through Fifth grade should be strictly reading, writing, adding, subtraction, division, fractions basic shapes, etc. The ones that cannot get passed this are washed out at this point.
Next the ones who excel at the above go on to middle school, learn higher math, some American and world history, science, etc. After this only the few who care and and excel in middle school go to high school which will be the new college. Only the best of the best get to go.
In my scenario above I might have got through middle school. I'm not rocket scientist material. High school for most is a waist. I remember the few people in school who excelled and went all out. I'm sure they are doing well and rightfully so. Most of us just need the basics.
Most people learn all they need to know to make it in life by the fifth grade.
By me @ 03/10/10 06:48:43 PMreport abuse
Sr year is for partying!
I took my two boys out of school in their jr years and sent them to our CC....they tore it up and had their High School diplomas a year ahead of all their friends. They thrived in an environment where they were treated like adults instead of little kids. Our education system is still operating as it did in 1930....No wonder the drop out rate is so high...High school is BORING and not creative to the modern kids mind!
By Tony Goiburn @ 03/10/10 05:17:48 PMreport abuse

Senior Year

High school students in our area can receive college credits through the local community college during their Jr and Sr High school years while taking classes at the high school. By the time they graduate high school they receive several credits toward their degree. (What a money saver!)

By Lyn @ 03/12/10 08:15:36 PMreport abuse

I started college after the 10th grade. I went to public school through the 9th grade and was home schooled my 10th grade year. After completing my 10th grade year I wouldn't have had much left to do for the last two, just some English courses and history clases (I'd already completed math, science, PE, and typing).

The public school I was attending had gone to a system called Block Scheduling were you do four classes the first half of the school year and then do four different classes the second half of the year. The idea being that you could squeeze in two extra classes each year. It's a good idea in principal but the implementation left something to be desired. For instance, you could take English 1 the first half of the year, but you were not allowed to sign up to take English 2 the second half of the year as you might not pass English 1 (you had to sign up for classes at the beginning of the year for both terms, unlike college were you sign up for a term right before the beginning of the term). This system leaves students stuck in the system for four years as you were required to complete four English courses to "complete" your HS education.

I often found myself bored at high school. I would do my homework during the teacher's lecture because they were teaching things that I'd already learned in elementary and middle school. That's why when my mom asked me if I wanted to be home schooled my 10th grade year I jumped at the chance.

Personally I feel like things worked out great for me, even though I did not do the full four years of high school. I don't know that only doing two years of high school would work for everyone, as not every student applies him/herself to their studies as much as they should. For many people in my class, high school was just a social outlet not a place to learn skills you may need later in life.

By Angela @ 03/11/10 10:58:31 PMreport abuse

senior year

Unfortunately the proposal gets priorities upside down. The senior year doesn't have to be a waste.

I have three daughters who each completed at least a year of college work while still in high school. From the perspective of the whole country this is a much better use of resources than sending them to college.

So the proposal seems to be to save $ in school budgets at the expense of a much higher cost for college.

What about the kids who don't belong in college? Are we to just write them off?

We need education reform but cutting students off a high school year short is not reform, its a mistake.

By John Homer @ 03/11/10 08:37:54 PMreport abuse

Private vs. Public

Another note to the readers. I have 4 kids... the youngest by 5 years is in a private Christian School and in 5th grade has surpassed his sisters in High School on general skills. In the year that child has been in the private school we have seen unbelievable differences. The politics in the GA schools can only be described as frustrating. Send the kids off after 10th grade. Let them test and go to trade school, College prep, military or public service. Give them the choice instead of sitting around getting pregnant, drunk and wasting our money for 2 more years. Teachers have a great job and they must know it because they don't want things to change. I have relatives who retired as educators in their early 50's and we as tax payers have to pay for the wonderful retirement they enjoy as we work into our 70's. I would have to say that the system works great for them.

By Kurt @ 03/11/10 05:16:34 PMreport abuse

Senior year

I'm surprised politicians hadn't brought this up earlier. The last 2 years of High School are almost worthless. There are some that get some good out of it but if you doubt what I'm saying just go visit your local High School one day. Public School should go to about the 10th grade and then either trade school or Junior College. Let them decide I don't think that even 4 more years of education will help many. Give them some skills they can use to support themselves and contribute to society. I have to hire them all the time and I very seldom find a 19 year old that is capable of doing much more than play video games or basketball.

By Kurt @ 03/11/10 05:06:24 PMreport abuse

GED, and age limits

The age limit you can stay in high school and repeat your senior year is way too high. When I was doing my student teaching, in grad school, my supervising teacher pointed out a student who was wandering the halls between classes, and looked like a drug dealer to me. She said he was over 20. She said they couldn't just kick him out, b/c of the new rule that students were to be allowed to repeat a year almost indefinitely. That needs to end. Also, bright students should have the option of taking the GED after their junior year, get the diploma and start college early, I second that Clark. Students who want to take the AP exams (which saved me a lot of money in college - I was awarded 12 credit hours towards bachelor's degree from the combined scores I got on 3 different AP exams) should be allowed to prep for those exams in their junior year if they wish to.

By vlh @ 03/11/10 04:32:03 PMreport abuse

Oh Stephanie

"It is in the best interest of us all to make sure children are properly educated so can contribute to the well being of this country and the world at large."

So when are they going to start? I live in CO, supposedly in a community with "good" schools based on the test scores and graduation rates. From what I see, kids graduating today are about 2-3 grades behind the achievement level compared to when I graduated in 1973. So why are we paying these huge sums for a system that doesn't work very well? When I hear "It's for the children!", I have to laugh. No it isn't, it's for the benefit of a bunch of overpaid education workers who gave up on the hard work of teaching a long time ago.

By Ted @ 03/11/10 03:26:00 PMreport abuse

Response to Waste of Time and Money

Bill your comment is foolish to single out minority children is ridiculous. Clearly you have no idea what minority means. Let me educate you a minority is a small percentage of a majority. Therefore if you took number for number you would see that the so called "white" children number for number are not going to school either. In case you do not understand public school is a service that the country provides for the entire population. As it stands our education standards are rather low as evidenced by the ridiculous statement you just made. Perhaps you fail to realize that whatever issues affect one portion of the society or the world eventually effects everyone. It is in the best interest of us all to make sure children are properly educated so can contribute to the well being of this country and the world at large.
Also please not that the amount of melanin one has in their skin does not determine school attendance or education.

By Stephanie @ 03/11/10 01:57:17 PMreport abuse

Hello, Exactly!

"unless and until that monopoly stranglehold is broken, nothing will happen."

Indeed!

I can tell you, as a personal testimonial, now that I've completed two degrees (one in engineering-hard!) that high school was a huge waste of time.

Part of the reason was the disruption and lack of concern by my teachers, in addition to violence and general social nonsense.

With exceptions, high schools don't provide you what you need to prepare for a REAL education and skills needed for the workplace.

Anything worth a rip I learned in college or vocational school, which required me to make a lot of effort.

If there are high schools preparing students for basic math, english, and other PRACTICAL skills that would be much better. That can be done in less than 12 grades!

By Micro_engineer @ 03/11/10 10:33:03 AMreport abuse

Public education sucks

I could have skipped the last three years of high school for what they taught me. We need vouchers and we need them now. The teachers unions can kiss my a**. I pay full meal deal property taxes AND for a private school education for my child.

By David @ 03/11/10 10:03:09 AMreport abuse

Budget priorities

Maybe we would see improvements if our Government spending on educations was a small fraction of defense. The budget is smaller than the medicare misappropriations per year. But of course, the righties think we need no change in our wasteful corporate-bought healthcare system, and I am sure would be fine with a corporate play-to-pay education system where only the wealthy would get any education.

By Mike @ 03/11/10 09:33:51 AMreport abuse

one size fits all

our current k-12 education system is a monopoly, run by the government and their friends, the state and national teachers unions.
unless and until that monopoly stranglehold is broken, nothing will happen.
divy up each state's education budget per student, special needs getting more and allow these parents to send their children anywhere. budding math whizes go here, budding musicians go there, etc. students with trade school dreams go wherever. what could be better?
I know what the pro-union lefties say, like "what if parents want to send their kids to some parocial school?" so what! this is just another attempt to treat parents as a bunch of dummies. parents are not. there could be default selections if parents do not decide, such as what is now mandatory, the soviet style, monopoly run, union dominated, mediocre public school, but so what. at least those parents who want to could do what is actually best for their child, as opposed to what is best for the politicians, unions and teachers.
but, just my opinion

By brian @ 03/10/10 11:31:53 PMreport abuse

No Senior Year?

Let me get this straight. My school taxes are included in my property taxes so do I get a tax reduction for not having sent my child that last year? I don't think so. All parents should demand that their children go to school full time for 13 years which is what they are paying for. In most jobs we are sitting on our fat rears so work study and other programs can now be done on a computer at the school. I am not against change but am against getting the shaft when it comes to my tax money.

By Debbie Downer @ 03/10/10 10:00:07 PMreport abuse

education

Maybe we should reverse the trend of "dumbing down" our public high schools and actually challenge the students. There should be entrance exams for the high school and once you are accepted you are committing to do college prep work - 4 years of math, science, english, history and a language. While I do believe that not everyone needs a higher education to be successful, I think that most kids need to be challenged intellectually if we are to compete in a global economy. I also think that organized community service projects should be a part of the high school curriculum so that kids learn to communicate beyond texting and that they learn compassion for other people. When they go out into the community they will also learn that there are many jobs out there that they never even new existed and this may help them in planning their future careers.

By Maryanne @ 03/10/10 09:06:49 PMreport abuse

School

Clark,
I normally agree with you. However, your comment about "We spend so much on public schools and get so little return for it"
has thrown me off. I agree that the "one size fits all" mentality is dated. However, to throw that above comment out there is irresponsible. I have worked in education for 12 years, and before that in the private sector. The things that schools are doing nowadays is incredible. The test scores we are seeing is a result of some pretty messed up families or Non-English speaking students. This drives the curve down. So, please don't throw out such a comment without some backing.

By Eric @ 03/10/10 07:53:10 PMreport abuse

The answer to the public school problems is this. First through Fifth grade should be strictly reading, writing, adding, subtraction, division, fractions basic shapes, etc. The ones that cannot get passed this are washed out at this point.
Next the ones who excel at the above go on to middle school, learn higher math, some American and world history, science, etc. After this only the few who care and and excel in middle school go to high school which will be the new college. Only the best of the best get to go.
In my scenario above I might have got through middle school. I'm not rocket scientist material. High school for most is a waist. I remember the few people in school who excelled and went all out. I'm sure they are doing well and rightfully so. Most of us just need the basics.
Most people learn all they need to know to make it in life by the fifth grade.

By me @ 03/10/10 06:48:43 PMreport abuse

Sr year is for partying!

I took my two boys out of school in their jr years and sent them to our CC....they tore it up and had their High School diplomas a year ahead of all their friends. They thrived in an environment where they were treated like adults instead of little kids. Our education system is still operating as it did in 1930....No wonder the drop out rate is so high...High school is BORING and not creative to the modern kids mind!

By Tony Goiburn @ 03/10/10 05:17:48 PMreport abuse

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Mar 10, 2010 -- Utah considering eliminating senior year in public schools

What others are saying